Say Philip the Good and Isabella of Portugal had one more surviving child, a son (John) born in 1435. How would his existence affect history? Assume, that he had good relations with older brother (so there is no usual for House of Valois family strife there). House of Valois-Burgundy ruled over collection of territorries within Kingdom of France and HRE with different rules of inheritance (with Salic Law in French part, and female inheritance being allowed in HRE). If Charles the Bold still dies leaving only daughter, what would happen to his lands? There are several scenarios with Charles having son with Margaret of Burgundy, but ITTL situation is different: John is adult man, not small boy. It should be easier to him to keep control over Duchy of Burgundy.
Charles the Bold had legitimate younger brother
- Thread starter Jan Olbracht
- Start date
Perhaps the Burgundian lands would be partitioned between them and Mary inherits the lands inherited by her father than can pass via the female line.
If John had son(s) then solution would be easy-marry him to Mary of Burgundy (BTW what would you say about Anne of York for John of Burgundy?). Otherwise split of Burgundian lands could be far from peaceful.
I considered also Elizabeth of Nevers or Jacqueline of Luxembourg for John, possible?
Interesting idea. I wonder if he wouldn't marry until late. It wouldn't be immediately obvious that his brother Charles wouldn't have a male heir so there wouldn't be pressure on John to marry right away. That would mean his son could be to young to marry his cousin Mary.
I also wonder if Louis XI wouldn't try to use him as a pawn against Charles in the same way Charles allied with Louis' brother, Charles, Duke of Berry. Though I guess if you assume good relations between the Burgundian Brothers maybe that could be avoided.
I also wonder if Louis XI wouldn't try to use him as a pawn against Charles in the same way Charles allied with Louis' brother, Charles, Duke of Berry. Though I guess if you assume good relations between the Burgundian Brothers maybe that could be avoided.
That is also interesting option, different from OP: John of Burgundy marries his Nevers cousin before death of his father (or with Anne of France much later), then he has clash with older brother and defects to side of Louis XI, hoping, that Louis would give Duchy of Burgundy to him after defeating Charles. Then both Duke of Burgundy and King of France had younger brothers in enemy's camp.
EDIT:
@Vitruvius ninjaed me with the same idea
EDIT:
@Vitruvius ninjaed me with the same idea
I must say, that John of Burgundy being conflicted with Charles is more fun idea, so maybe we should explore that option. So John is supporter of Louis XI, married to his daughter Anne. After death of Charles the Bold I think Louis would let him inherit Burgundy Proper, while in HRE part of Burgundian Inheritance there would be clash between John and his niece Mary.
That is one thing, another problem is: how strong would be support for John in Low Countries and Imperial part of Burgundy? John with no doubts would challenge rights of his niece also there.
Burgundian lands being reunited by John is outcome I'd like to see (does it require Mary to die?). Once it happens his relations with Louis XI would surely deterioriate, but once Louis dies, John could gain strong influence in France, being uncle by marriage of underaged Charles VIII.
I think a lot depends on how tight of a butterfly net you're suggesting. But assuming that things more or less stay the same through the 1470s (ie a heavy duty net) I think the Burgundian succession would be an international flash point.
On the one hand Mary is married to the Emperor's son so he would probably come down on her side in adjudication in the Imperial states. But John would have French backing in this scenario. England is busy with its own problems but once/if the Tudors come to power in England I assume they would support John too since Mary's stepmother Margaret of York was such a thorn in their side. That could finally tip the scales in John's favor. Though I doubt there would be a clear winner.
On the one hand Mary is married to the Emperor's son so he would probably come down on her side in adjudication in the Imperial states. But John would have French backing in this scenario. England is busy with its own problems but once/if the Tudors come to power in England I assume they would support John too since Mary's stepmother Margaret of York was such a thorn in their side. That could finally tip the scales in John's favor. Though I doubt there would be a clear winner.
IOTL Louis XI prevented match between Marie of Orléans and Peter of Bourbon and married both Peter of Bourbon and Louis d'Orléans to his sisters. *Here* OTL Peter's wife is married to John of Burgundy. Marie and Pierre match is still not in King's interest. I'm not sure what should happen to them?
Daughters maybe... Marie of Orleans’ wedding is destined to be a thorn in Louis’ side so... OTL she married the younger brother of his sister’s husband and look what happened... Louis has only one daughter still available (aka Joan) so he must decide if marrying her to Bourbon, Orléans or Nicholas of Anjou and trying to neutralize dangerous weddings of the other two... In the end pretty likely who Nicholas will die as OTL and Louis will let Peter and Marie marrying and keep Joan for Orléans. Hopefully he will not try to use his niece or the brother-in-law of his sister for resolving the problem as Francis Phoebus’ death will highly damage him in that case