Is there a way to save Eastern Thrace, given the outcome of the Asia Minor Campaign/Catastrophe?

Is there a way to save Eastern Thrace, given the outcome of the Asia Minor Campaign/Catastrophe?


  • Total voters
    36
Status
Not open for further replies.
Given the Asia Minor Catastrophe, any hope of Greece holding lands in Asia Minor after WWI was (sadly) lost and gone forever. But if the allies hadn't abandoned their erstwhile allies in Greece, could Greece have been able to keep Northern Epirus and/or Western Thrace?
 
Given the Asia Minor Catastrophe, any hope of Greece holding lands in Asia Minor after WWI was (sadly) lost and gone forever. But if the allies hadn't abandoned their erstwhile allies in Greece, could Greece have been able to keep Northern Epirus and/or Western Thrace?
You're sad that Greece didn't get to perform ethnic cleansing, if not outright genocide, in Anatolia?
 

Dementor

Banned
You're sad that Greece didn't get to perform ethnic cleansing, if not outright genocide, in Anatolia?
Or maybe he's sad that Turkey got to perform ethnic cleansing in both Anatolia and Eastern Thrace, after the Ottomans had already committed outright genocide?
 
Last edited:

Dementor

Banned
On the question asked in the thread, I would say that it's certainly possible. Even after the Greek army had been defeated in Anatolia, they had a strong navy to prevent any Turkish crossing attempt. And even after Greece had been forced to leave Eastern Thrace, the Turks had only a limited military presence there until the peace treaty was signed, which would find it difficult to defend the region against a Greek counter-attack if their resupply was cut off. There is a timeline published formerly on soc.history.what-if with this premise and it certainly seems well researched.
 
You're sad that Greece didn't get to perform ethnic cleansing, if not outright genocide, in Anatolia?
The Asia Minor Catastrophe refers to the destruction of the millennia-old Greek society and civilization in Asia Minor. Look up the fire of Smyrna.
And Greece never performed a genocide, but Turkey/the Ottomans did.
I don't endorse some sort of Byzantine resurrection, or sending all of the Turks "back" to Central Asia the way some extreme Greek nationalists did.
But it would have been nice if Greece had gotten at least Eastern Thrace.
On the question asked in the thread, I would say that it's certainly possible. Even after the Greek army had been defeated in Anatolia, they had a strong navy to prevent any Turkish crossing attempt. And even after Greece had been forced to leave Eastern Thrace, the Turks had only a limited military presence there until the peace treaty was signed, which would find it difficult to defend the region against a Greek counter-attack if their resupply was cut off. There is a timeline published formerly on soc.history.what-if with this premise and it certainly seems well researched.
So then why did Greece agree to leave Eastern Thrace instead of fighting on?
 

Dementor

Banned
The Asia Minor Catastrophe refers to the destruction of the millennia-old Greek society and civilization in Asia Minor. Look up the fire of Smyrna.
And Greece never performed a genocide, but Turkey/the Ottomans did.
I don't endorse some sort of Byzantine resurrection, or sending all of the Turks "back" to Central Asia the way some extreme Greek nationalists did.
But it would have been nice if Greece had gotten at least Eastern Thrace.

So then why did Greece agree to leave Eastern Thrace instead of fighting on?
Difficult to say. Probably the combination of the effects of the defeat - both in terms of casualties and also of demoralization - made Greece unwilling to fight further, as well as the lack of foreign support. Britain in particular would not have looked too kindly on Greece breaking an armistice negotiated by them.
 
Difficult to say. Probably the combination of the effects of the defeat - both in terms of casualties and also of demoralization - made Greece unwilling to fight further, as well as the lack of foreign support. Britain in particular would not have looked too kindly on Greece breaking an armistice negotiated by them.
If I was the leader of Greece, I wouldn't have signed the armistice.
 
The Greek Navy was strong enough that the Turks had little chance of being able to conquer Eastern Thrace outright.
More than enough to ship weapons and supplies to the large number of Turks who made up a majority of the region's population. Greece didn't have the political will to hold onto the region in the face of local opposition from the populace.
 
More than enough to ship weapons and supplies to the large number of Turks who made up a majority of the region's population. Greece didn't have the political will to hold onto the region in the face of local opposition from the populace.
In 1912, there were slightly more Greeks than Turks, but neither group was a majority. (39% Greek, 36% Turkish, 4% Bulgarian, the rest was "others").
 
The Asia Minor Catastrophe refers to the destruction of the millennia-old Greek society and civilization in Asia Minor. Look up the fire of Smyrna.
And Greece never performed a genocide, but Turkey/the Ottomans did.
This is a moot point because a successful Greek campaign of conquest against Ottoman territories in Thrace and Western Anatolia would have required ethnic cleansing to prepare the land for Greek settlers, eliminate pockets of resistance, and enforce Greek rule over the area.
I don't endorse some sort of Byzantine resurrection, or sending all of the Turks "back" to Central Asia the way some extreme Greek nationalists did.
But it would have been nice if Greece had gotten at least Eastern Thrace.
Nice to whom? Not to the local Turks who for centuries had coexisted with the Greeks, isn't that for sure?
And neither to the average Greeks, who would see the military establishment be vindicated and gain prestige and capital, introducing a dangerous element to Greek democracy that could destabilize it.
 
Last edited:

Dementor

Banned
More than enough to ship weapons and supplies to the large number of Turks who made up a majority of the region's population. Greece didn't have the political will to hold onto the region in the face of local opposition from the populace.
Transporting supplies against a hostile navy doesn't seem like a recipe for success. On top of that, most ships in the Marmara Sea at the time had apparently Greek crews, which are hardly going to be helpful.

In 1912, there were slightly more Greeks than Turks, but neither group was a majority. (39% Greek, 36% Turkish, 4% Bulgarian, the rest was "others").
Of course these figures are questionable at best (they were certainly a lot more Bulgarians, for example). It depends of course on who made them to say in which favor they were distorted most. By 1923 there would of course be significant changes. The Bulgarians were expelled (or exterminated) in 1913 and a large number of Muslims from the Balkans were settled in Eastern Thrace, so there was certainly a Muslim majority by then.
 
I get that lots of people are more sympathetic to Greece in these discussions, but ethnically cleansing Thrace, which would be required for any lasting Greek rule, is still ethnic cleansing. It would be good for nobody.
 

Germaniac

Donor
Greece was at the absolute end of its rope. It was drowning in debt after being involved in four wars over a decade, it's political balancing act was falling apart, the image of it's monarchy was at its lowest since the Greco-Turkish disaster of 1897, and the Great Powers had lost all interest in propping up the country.

Greece could have held out for a time, but clearly the initiative had shifted to the Turkish nationalists and very little could be done to turn the tide.
 

Dementor

Banned
I get that lots of people are more sympathetic to Greece in these discussions, but ethnically cleansing Thrace, which would be required for any lasting Greek rule, is still ethnic cleansing. It would be good for nobody.
Not getting expelled from their homes would certainly be better for the Greeks of Eastern Thrace and for Greece which had to accommodate all these refugees. It's also not at all clear that Greece would have needed to expel the Muslims to stabilize their rule. In this scenario, there still would be the mass expulsion of Greeks from Anatolia and Greece could easily gain a majority in Eastern Thrace by settling some of them there. In OTL, Greece has never had any trouble with holding on to Western Thrace with its large Muslim minority, so it's certainly wouldn't be impossible in this timeline. Taking this into acount, it's not out of the question that the total number of people
expelled might be lower than in OTL.

 
Last edited:
Not getting expelled from their homes would certainly be better for the Greeks of Eastern Thrace and for Greece which had to accommodate all these refugees. It's also not at all clear that Greece would have needed to expel the Muslims to stabilize their rule. In this scenario, there still would be the mass expulsion of Greeks from Anatolia and Greece could easily gain a majority in Eastern Thrace by settling some of them there. In OTL, Greece has never had any trouble with holding on to Western Thrace with its large Muslim minority, so it's certainly wouldn't be impossible in this timeline. Taking this into acount, it's not out of the question that the total number of people expelled might be lower than in OTL.
I don't buy that. Expulsions of Muslims from the Balkans was a time honored tradition at this point. I see no reason the Greeks wouldn't attempt it and likely fail given the state of Greece at the time.
 

Dementor

Banned
Ban
I don't buy that. Expulsions of Muslims from the Balkans was a time honored tradition at this point. I see no reason the Greeks wouldn't attempt it and likely fail given the state of Greece at the time.
It was not at all a time honored tradition. Consider the huge Muslim population in Bulgaria, Serbia after the Balkan wars or more relevantly Greece itself. After all, how could there have been a population exchange between Greece and Turkey if the Muslims had been expelled after the Balkan Wars? Even in OTL, it was Turkey that demanded the population exchange, not Greece.
 
Not getting expelled from their homes would certainly be better for the Greeks of Eastern Thrace and for Greece which had to accommodate all these refugees. It's also not at all clear that Greece would have needed to expel the Muslims to stabilize their rule. In this scenario, there still would be the mass expulsion of Greeks from Anatolia and Greece could easily gain a majority in Eastern Thrace by settling some of them there. In OTL, Greece has never had any trouble with holding on to Western Thrace with its large Muslim minority, so it's certainly wouldn't be impossible in this timeline. Taking this into acount, it's not out of the question that the total number of people expelled might be lower than in OTL.
I wouldn't put it past the Greek military to enact a campaign of ethnic cleansing and population exchange in TTL given that the precedents for it were already being set in the OTL war which saw several urban massacres perpetrated by both sides. The reason why Western Thrace's Muslims are tolerated is because they are a minority in a border zone -- in the case in which Greece conquers Western Anatolia and both sides of the Sea of Marmara, they will have many more Turks and restive minorities at their hands to deal with, which they will be compelled to repress given the strategic importance of Constantinople and the area in general.
 
It was not at all a time honored tradition. Consider the huge Muslim population in Bulgaria, Serbia after the Balkan wars or more relevantly Greece itself. After all, how could there have been a population exchange between Greece and Turkey if the Muslims had been expelled after the Balkan Wars? Even in OTL, it was Turkey that demanded the population exchange, not Greece.
Just because there were Muslim populations there doesn't mean that expulsions were not a common occurrence. One could say the same thing about Russian Jews.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top